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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60207=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Thu Oct 21 07:25:41 2004
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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 13:22:40 +0200 (CEST)
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From: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
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To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
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Subject: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
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Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410211300430.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
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Status: OR
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I've made a partial implementation of a datatype "timestamp with time
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zone" as described in the sql standard. The current type "timestamptz"
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does not store the time zone as a standard one should do. So I've made a
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new type I've called timestampstdtz that does store the time zone as the
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standard demands.
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Let me show a bit of what currently works in my implementation:
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dennis=# CREATE TABLE foo (
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a timestampstdtz,
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primary key (a)
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);
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dennis=# INSERT INTO foo VALUES ('1993-02-04 13:00 UTC');
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dennis=# INSERT INTO foo VALUES ('1999-06-01 14:00 CET');
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dennis=# INSERT INTO foo VALUES ('2003-08-21 15:00 PST');
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dennis=# SELECT a FROM foo;
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a
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------------------------
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1993-02-04 13:00:00+00
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1999-06-01 14:00:00+01
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2003-08-21 15:00:00-08
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dennis=# SELECT a AT TIME ZONE 'CET' FROM foo;
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timezone
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------------------------
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1993-02-04 14:00:00+01
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1999-06-01 14:00:00+01
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2003-08-22 00:00:00+01
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My plan is to make a GUC variable so that one can tell PG that constructs
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like "timestamp with time zone" will map to timestampstdtz instead of
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timestamptz (some old databases might need the old so unless we want to
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break old code this is the easiest solution I can find).
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I've made an implicit cast from timestampstdtz to timestamptz that just
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forgets about the time zone. In the other direction I've made an
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assignment cast that make a timestamp with time zone 0 (that's what a
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timestamptz is anyway). Would it be possible to make it implicit in both
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directions? I currently don't think that you want that, but is it
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possible?
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With the implicit cast in place I assume it would be safe to change
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functions like now() to return a timestampstdtz? I've not tried yet but I
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will. As far as I can tell the cast would make old code that use now() to
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still work as before.
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Any comments before I invest more time into this subject?
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--
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/Dennis Bj<42>rklund
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60208=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Thu Oct 21 10:34:36 2004
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To: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
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cc: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
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Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
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In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410211300430.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
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References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410211300430.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
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Comments: In-reply-to Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
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message dated "Thu, 21 Oct 2004 13:22:40 +0200"
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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 10:29:07 -0400
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Message-ID: <15232.1098368947@sss.pgh.pa.us>
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From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
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Status: OR
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Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org> writes:
|
||
> I've made a partial implementation of a datatype "timestamp with time
|
||
> zone" as described in the sql standard. The current type "timestamptz"
|
||
> does not store the time zone as a standard one should do.
|
||
|
||
I'm aware that there are aspects of the spec behavior that appear to
|
||
require that, but is it really an improvement over the implementation
|
||
we have? This is an area in which the standard is pretty brain-dead
|
||
--- the entire concept of a "time with time zone" datatype is rather
|
||
suspect, for instance.
|
||
|
||
In particular, I wonder how you will handle daylight-savings issues.
|
||
The spec definition seems to preclude doing anything intelligent with
|
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DST, as they equate a timezone with a fixed offset from UTC. That's
|
||
not how it works in (large parts of) the real world.
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regards, tom lane
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---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives?
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http://archives.postgresql.org
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60210=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Thu Oct 21 11:08:02 2004
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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 17:01:52 +0200 (CEST)
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From: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
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To: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
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cc: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
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Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
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In-Reply-To: <15232.1098368947@sss.pgh.pa.us>
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Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410211637560.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
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Status: OR
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On Thu, 21 Oct 2004, Tom Lane wrote:
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||
|
||
> > I've made a partial implementation of a datatype "timestamp with time
|
||
> > zone" as described in the sql standard. The current type "timestamptz"
|
||
> > does not store the time zone as a standard one should do.
|
||
>
|
||
> I'm aware that there are aspects of the spec behavior that appear to
|
||
> require that, but is it really an improvement over the implementation
|
||
> we have?
|
||
|
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Improvement and improvement. The actual time value is of course the same
|
||
(the utc part of a timestamp) and the only thing extra you get is that the
|
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time zone is stored. The extra information you do have now, when stored in
|
||
this way, is that you store both a utc time and a local time. Will any
|
||
application ever need that? Who knows? I think it makes sense and is an
|
||
easier model to think about then what pg uses today. So I would use it
|
||
even if it means using 2 bytes more storage then what timestamptz do
|
||
|
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Just that it is standard also makes it useful. The more things of the
|
||
standard we support the easier it is to move between databases. This is
|
||
important to me.
|
||
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||
I also want to make a general statement that I think that whenever we use
|
||
standard syntax we should give it a standard semantics. I don't mind
|
||
extensions at all, but as much as we can we should make sure that they
|
||
don't clash with standard syntax and semantics.
|
||
|
||
> This is an area in which the standard is pretty brain-dead
|
||
> --- the entire concept of a "time with time zone" datatype is rather
|
||
> suspect, for instance.
|
||
|
||
I havn't look that much at "time with time zone" yet, just timestamps.
|
||
|
||
I can't see why time with time zone should not also be supported. I can't
|
||
really imagine it being used without a date, but if someone wants to store
|
||
timestamps as a date+time with time zone, then why not. It would be extra
|
||
work tu is it instead of a timestamp (especially for cases where the time
|
||
wraps over to the prev/next day), but hey.
|
||
|
||
> In particular, I wonder how you will handle daylight-savings issues.
|
||
> The spec definition seems to preclude doing anything intelligent with
|
||
> DST, as they equate a timezone with a fixed offset from UTC. That's
|
||
> not how it works in (large parts of) the real world.
|
||
|
||
The tz in the standard is a offset from utc, yes. So when you store a
|
||
value you tell it what offset you use. If you are using daylight-savings
|
||
time it might be +02 and if not dst it might be +01. What else would you
|
||
want to do with it? It's not like you can do anything else with it in pg
|
||
as of today, can you?
|
||
|
||
The stored tz does not say what region of the globe you are in, it says
|
||
the distance away from utc in minutes that you are. I could imagine
|
||
another datatype that stores the time zone as name, but that's not what
|
||
timestamp with time zone does.
|
||
|
||
--
|
||
/Dennis Bj<42>rklund
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---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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TIP 8: explain analyze is your friend
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60232=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Fri Oct 22 08:43:06 2004
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From: Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>
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To: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
|
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Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
|
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Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 08:37:33 -0400
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cc: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
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References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410211637560.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
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On Thursday 21 October 2004 11:01, Dennis Bjorklund wrote:
|
||
> On Thu, 21 Oct 2004, Tom Lane wrote:
|
||
> > I'm aware that there are aspects of the spec behavior that appear to
|
||
> > require that, but is it really an improvement over the implementation
|
||
> > we have?
|
||
>
|
||
> Improvement and improvement. The actual time value is of course the same
|
||
> (the utc part of a timestamp) and the only thing extra you get is that the
|
||
> time zone is stored. The extra information you do have now, when stored in
|
||
> this way, is that you store both a utc time and a local time. Will any
|
||
> application ever need that? Who knows? I think it makes sense and is an
|
||
> easier model to think about then what pg uses today. So I would use it
|
||
> even if it means using 2 bytes more storage then what timestamptz do
|
||
>
|
||
|
||
In a fit of early morning, pre-coffee thoughts, I'm thinking this might be
|
||
just what I've been looking for. In one of my apps we take calls from around
|
||
the country for customers and store the time that call came in. Unfortunately
|
||
we need to know things like how many calls did we take in an hour across
|
||
customers, but also how many calls did we take at 6AM local time to the
|
||
customer. The way PostgreSQL works now, you have to store some extra bits
|
||
of info in another column and then reassemble it to be able to determine
|
||
those two queries, but it sounds like your timestampstdtz would allow that
|
||
information to be stored together, as it should be.
|
||
|
||
--
|
||
Robert Treat
|
||
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60235=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Fri Oct 22 10:18:44 2004
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To: Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>
|
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cc: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
|
||
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
|
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In-Reply-To: <200410220837.33886.xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>
|
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References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410211637560.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org> <200410220837.33886.xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>
|
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Comments: In-reply-to Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>
|
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message dated "Fri, 22 Oct 2004 08:37:33 -0400"
|
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Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 10:13:18 -0400
|
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Message-ID: <6540.1098454398@sss.pgh.pa.us>
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From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
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|
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Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net> writes:
|
||
> In a fit of early morning, pre-coffee thoughts, I'm thinking this might be
|
||
> just what I've been looking for. In one of my apps we take calls from around
|
||
> the country for customers and store the time that call came in. Unfortunately
|
||
> we need to know things like how many calls did we take in an hour across
|
||
> customers, but also how many calls did we take at 6AM local time to the
|
||
> customer. The way PostgreSQL works now, you have to store some extra bits
|
||
> of info in another column and then reassemble it to be able to determine
|
||
> those two queries, but it sounds like your timestampstdtz would allow that
|
||
> information to be stored together, as it should be.
|
||
|
||
As far as I can tell, Dennis is planning slavish adherence to the spec,
|
||
which will mean that the datatype is unable to cope effectively with
|
||
daylight-savings issues. So I'm unconvinced that it will be very
|
||
helpful to you for remembering local time in addition to true
|
||
(universal) time.
|
||
|
||
regards, tom lane
|
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60237=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Fri Oct 22 10:33:04 2004
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Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 16:28:12 +0200 (CEST)
|
||
From: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
|
||
To: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
||
cc: Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>,
|
||
<pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
||
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
|
||
In-Reply-To: <6540.1098454398@sss.pgh.pa.us>
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|
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On Fri, 22 Oct 2004, Tom Lane wrote:
|
||
|
||
> As far as I can tell, Dennis is planning slavish adherence to the spec,
|
||
> which will mean that the datatype is unable to cope effectively with
|
||
> daylight-savings issues. So I'm unconvinced that it will be very
|
||
> helpful to you for remembering local time in addition to true
|
||
> (universal) time.
|
||
|
||
And exactly what issues is it that you see? The only thing I can think of
|
||
is if you have a timestamp and then add an interval to it so we jump past
|
||
the daylight saving time change date. Then the new timestamp will keep the
|
||
old timezone data of say +01 even though we now have jumped into the
|
||
daylight saving period of +02.
|
||
|
||
If you are just storing actual timestamps then the standard definition
|
||
works just fine. If I store '2004-10-22 16:20:04 +02' then that's exactly
|
||
what I get back. No problem what so ever. There is no DST problem with
|
||
that.
|
||
|
||
It's possible that I will introduce some daylight saving bit or something
|
||
like that, I'm not sure yet and I will not commit to anything until I've
|
||
thought it over. I don't think there are that much of a problem as you
|
||
claim however. Could you give a concret example where it will be a
|
||
problem?
|
||
|
||
My current thinking is that storing the time zone value as HH:MM is
|
||
just fine and you avoid all the problems with political changes of when
|
||
the DST is in effect or not.
|
||
|
||
--
|
||
/Dennis Bj<42>rklund
|
||
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||
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60240=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Fri Oct 22 10:58:26 2004
|
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To: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
|
||
cc: Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
|
||
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
|
||
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410221615150.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
|
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References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410221615150.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
|
||
Comments: In-reply-to Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
|
||
message dated "Fri, 22 Oct 2004 16:28:12 +0200"
|
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Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 10:54:19 -0400
|
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Message-ID: <6994.1098456859@sss.pgh.pa.us>
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|
||
Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org> writes:
|
||
> And exactly what issues is it that you see? The only thing I can think of
|
||
> is if you have a timestamp and then add an interval to it so we jump past
|
||
> the daylight saving time change date. Then the new timestamp will keep the
|
||
> old timezone data of say +01 even though we now have jumped into the
|
||
> daylight saving period of +02.
|
||
|
||
Isn't that sufficient? You can't design a datatype by thinking only of
|
||
the data values it stores; you have to think about the operations you
|
||
intend to provide as well. A non-DST-capable timestamp datatype is
|
||
inherently a few bricks shy of a load. (BTW we really need to fix
|
||
the interval type as well...)
|
||
|
||
At bottom, what I want to be able to do is say
|
||
'2004-10-22 10:50:16.916003 America/New_York'
|
||
and have the datatype preserve *all* of the information in that. You
|
||
are complaining because the existing type only remembers the equivalent
|
||
universal time and not the timezone spec. Why should I be satisfied if
|
||
it stores only the GMT offset and not the knowledge of which timezone
|
||
this really is?
|
||
|
||
> My current thinking is that storing the time zone value as HH:MM is
|
||
> just fine and you avoid all the problems with political changes of when
|
||
> the DST is in effect or not.
|
||
|
||
This is fundamentally misguided. Time zones *are* political whether you
|
||
like it or not, and people *do* expect DST-awareness whether you like it
|
||
or not. If you still use any computer systems that need to be reset
|
||
twice a year because their designers thought DST was not their problem,
|
||
don't you roundly curse them every time you have to do it?
|
||
|
||
If you were planning to store a real (potentially DST-aware) timezone
|
||
spec in the data values, I'd be happy. But storing a fixed GMT offset
|
||
is going to be a step backwards compared to existing functionality. The
|
||
fact that it's sufficient to satisfy the DST-ignorant SQL spec does not
|
||
make it a reasonable design for the real world.
|
||
|
||
One way to do this would be to create a system catalog with entries for
|
||
all known timezones, and then represent timestamptz values as universal
|
||
time plus an OID from that catalog. There are other ways that small
|
||
integer codes could be mapped to timezones of course.
|
||
|
||
regards, tom lane
|
||
|
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60239=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Fri Oct 22 10:49:13 2004
|
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Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 09:56:44 -0500
|
||
From: Bruno Wolff III <bruno@wolff.to>
|
||
To: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
|
||
cc: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>, Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>,
|
||
pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
|
||
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
|
||
Message-ID: <20041022145644.GA17238@wolff.to>
|
||
Mail-Followup-To: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>,
|
||
Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>,
|
||
Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>,
|
||
pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
|
||
References: <6540.1098454398@sss.pgh.pa.us> <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410221615150.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
|
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|
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|
||
On Fri, Oct 22, 2004 at 16:28:12 +0200,
|
||
Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org> wrote:
|
||
> On Fri, 22 Oct 2004, Tom Lane wrote:
|
||
>
|
||
> > As far as I can tell, Dennis is planning slavish adherence to the spec,
|
||
> > which will mean that the datatype is unable to cope effectively with
|
||
> > daylight-savings issues. So I'm unconvinced that it will be very
|
||
> > helpful to you for remembering local time in addition to true
|
||
> > (universal) time.
|
||
>
|
||
> And exactly what issues is it that you see? The only thing I can think of
|
||
> is if you have a timestamp and then add an interval to it so we jump past
|
||
> the daylight saving time change date. Then the new timestamp will keep the
|
||
> old timezone data of say +01 even though we now have jumped into the
|
||
> daylight saving period of +02.
|
||
|
||
I think for just storing values you are fine. When it comes to adding or
|
||
subtracting intervals you might get some unexpected results.
|
||
|
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60253=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Fri Oct 22 14:44:05 2004
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id 89B7E8467; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 17:34:19 +0200 (CEST)
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Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 17:34:19 +0200 (CEST)
|
||
From: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
|
||
To: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
||
cc: Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>,
|
||
<pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
||
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
|
||
In-Reply-To: <6994.1098456859@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
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Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410221714500.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
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On Fri, 22 Oct 2004, Tom Lane wrote:
|
||
|
||
> At bottom, what I want to be able to do is say
|
||
> '2004-10-22 10:50:16.916003 America/New_York'
|
||
|
||
Yes, that's what we said in the last mail and I think there is a value in
|
||
having something like this.
|
||
|
||
> universal time and not the timezone spec. Why should I be satisfied if
|
||
> it stores only the GMT offset and not the knowledge of which timezone
|
||
> this really is?
|
||
|
||
You don't need to be satisfied with it. I think a type like the above
|
||
would be fine to have. It should however not be called "TIMESTAMP WITH
|
||
TIME ZONE" because there is already a definition of that type. We can not
|
||
hijack standard types. I would not mind a type like TIMESTAMP WITH TIME
|
||
ZONE NAME (or some other name). I could even imagine that I could
|
||
implement something like that one day.
|
||
|
||
> > My current thinking is that storing the time zone value as HH:MM is
|
||
> > just fine and you avoid all the problems with political changes of when
|
||
> > the DST is in effect or not.
|
||
>
|
||
> This is fundamentally misguided. Time zones *are* political whether you
|
||
> like it or not, and people *do* expect DST-awareness whether you like it
|
||
> or not.
|
||
|
||
And I never said that time zones are not political, just that HH:MM is a
|
||
usable approximation that works fairly well.
|
||
|
||
> But storing a fixed GMT offset is going to be a step backwards compared
|
||
> to existing functionality.
|
||
|
||
It's not a step backwards since you can do everything you can do with the
|
||
current type plus a little bit more. It's however not a step to the
|
||
datatype discussed above.
|
||
|
||
> One way to do this would be to create a system catalog with entries for
|
||
> all known timezones, and then represent timestamptz values as universal
|
||
> time plus an OID from that catalog. There are other ways that small
|
||
> integer codes could be mapped to timezones of course.
|
||
|
||
This is just fine. You try to make it sound like I am against such a
|
||
datatype, I am not. It's however not the datatype that we can expect
|
||
applications and other databases to use. So why should we settle for only
|
||
that type. Just because you can make a perfect datatype it doesn't mean
|
||
that the standard datatype should just be ignored.
|
||
|
||
What would you store when the user supplies a timestamp like '2004-10-22
|
||
17:21:00 +0200'. Should you reject that because you don't know the
|
||
time zone name? So your datatype will not work for applications that try
|
||
to be compatable with many databases by using the standard?
|
||
|
||
Maybe one could make a datatype called TIMESTAMP WITH TIME ZONE that can
|
||
accept both HH:MM and TimeZoneName. Whenever you store values with HH:MM
|
||
time zones you will get the same problem when you add an interval as the
|
||
standard type has.
|
||
|
||
--
|
||
/Dennis Bj<42>rklund
|
||
|
||
|
||
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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TIP 8: explain analyze is your friend
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||
|
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60266=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Fri Oct 22 17:04:46 2004
|
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|
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To: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
|
||
cc: Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
|
||
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
|
||
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410221714500.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
|
||
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410221714500.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
|
||
Comments: In-reply-to Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
|
||
message dated "Fri, 22 Oct 2004 17:34:19 +0200"
|
||
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 17:01:32 -0400
|
||
Message-ID: <18876.1098478892@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
||
From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
||
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Status: OR
|
||
|
||
Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org> writes:
|
||
> You don't need to be satisfied with it. I think a type like the above
|
||
> would be fine to have. It should however not be called "TIMESTAMP WITH
|
||
> TIME ZONE" because there is already a definition of that type. We can not
|
||
> hijack standard types.
|
||
|
||
Sure we can, as long as they are upward compatible with the standard
|
||
behavior. The spec says you can put a numeric-GMT-offset zone in and
|
||
get a numeric-GMT-offset zone out. We can do that and also support
|
||
named, possibly DST-aware zones. This seems a whole lot better to me
|
||
than having two different types (the idea of a GUC variable to choose
|
||
which one is selected by a given type name is just horrid).
|
||
|
||
>> But storing a fixed GMT offset is going to be a step backwards compared
|
||
>> to existing functionality.
|
||
|
||
> It's not a step backwards since you can do everything you can do with the
|
||
> current type plus a little bit more.
|
||
|
||
... except get useful answers from interval addition ...
|
||
|
||
> What would you store when the user supplies a timestamp like '2004-10-22
|
||
> 17:21:00 +0200'. Should you reject that because you don't know the
|
||
> time zone name?
|
||
|
||
You are attacking a straw man.
|
||
|
||
We have put a great deal of work into 8.0 to add the ability to support
|
||
real-world zones fully. We did not import src/timezone because we
|
||
needed it to implement the SQL spec; we did so because we needed it to
|
||
implement what real users want. We are not fully there yet (can't do AT
|
||
TIME ZONE conversions with all zones yet, for instance) but I am hoping
|
||
to be there by 8.1. It would be folly to invent a timestamp with time
|
||
zone type that is going in the other direction while we are trying to
|
||
bring the rest of the system up to full speed by allowing all timezone
|
||
kinds everywhere.
|
||
|
||
regards, tom lane
|
||
|
||
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60267=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Fri Oct 22 17:22:15 2004
|
||
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Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 23:18:07 +0200 (CEST)
|
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From: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
|
||
To: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
||
cc: Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>,
|
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<pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
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Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
|
||
In-Reply-To: <18876.1098478892@sss.pgh.pa.us>
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Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410222306560.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
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Status: OR
|
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|
||
On Fri, 22 Oct 2004, Tom Lane wrote:
|
||
|
||
> than having two different types (the idea of a GUC variable to choose
|
||
> which one is selected by a given type name is just horrid).
|
||
|
||
That is needed no matter what change you do if you want old programs that
|
||
use the current timestamp with time zone to work. Today you don't get back
|
||
the same time zone as you insert, programs might depend on that.
|
||
|
||
> We are not fully there yet (can't do AT TIME ZONE conversions with all
|
||
> zones yet, for instance)
|
||
|
||
Why is that? When one start with a utc value, performing a AT TIME ZONE
|
||
operation doesn't look so complicated.
|
||
|
||
--
|
||
/Dennis Bj<42>rklund
|
||
|
||
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TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60268=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Fri Oct 22 17:41:36 2004
|
||
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Fri, 22 Oct 2004 17:38:25 -0400 (EDT)
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||
To: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
|
||
cc: Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
|
||
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
|
||
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410222306560.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
|
||
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410222306560.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
|
||
Comments: In-reply-to Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
|
||
message dated "Fri, 22 Oct 2004 23:18:07 +0200"
|
||
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 17:38:24 -0400
|
||
Message-ID: <19117.1098481104@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
||
From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
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Status: OR
|
||
|
||
Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org> writes:
|
||
> On Fri, 22 Oct 2004, Tom Lane wrote:
|
||
>> than having two different types (the idea of a GUC variable to choose
|
||
>> which one is selected by a given type name is just horrid).
|
||
|
||
> That is needed no matter what change you do if you want old programs that
|
||
> use the current timestamp with time zone to work. Today you don't get back
|
||
> the same time zone as you insert, programs might depend on that.
|
||
|
||
[ shrug... ] We've made much larger changes than that in the name of
|
||
standards compliance. In practice I think the majority of apps are
|
||
working in contexts where they will get back the same zone as they
|
||
inserted, if they inserted a zone explicitly at all, so the risk of
|
||
breakage is not that high. Having a GUC variable that changes the
|
||
semantics underneath you is *much* riskier, to judge by past experience.
|
||
|
||
>> We are not fully there yet (can't do AT TIME ZONE conversions with all
|
||
>> zones yet, for instance)
|
||
|
||
> Why is that?
|
||
|
||
Because it's not done yet. There's a set of GMT-offset-only zone names
|
||
wired into the datetime code (look in the "datetime token table") and
|
||
those are what AT TIME ZONE knows how to deal with. We need to unify
|
||
that old stuff with the src/timezone code, but we ran out of time to do
|
||
it in 8.0.
|
||
|
||
The way I see it, we have three sorts of zones to deal with: fixed
|
||
numeric offsets from UTC, names that represent fixed offsets (eg, "EST"
|
||
is the same as UTC-5), and names that represent DST-variable offsets
|
||
(eg, "EST5EDT"). For what are now entirely historical reasons, various
|
||
parts of the system cope with different subsets of these three types.
|
||
I want to get to a state where you can use any of them in any context
|
||
and it Just Works. (While we are at it, we need to make the set of
|
||
recognized zone names user-configurable; the australian_timezones kluge
|
||
satisfies our contributors Down Under, but there are a lot of unhappy
|
||
people still, because for instance IST means different things in Israel
|
||
and India.)
|
||
|
||
regards, tom lane
|
||
|
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---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60269=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Fri Oct 22 17:51:14 2004
|
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|
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To: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
|
||
cc: Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
|
||
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
|
||
In-Reply-To: <19117.1098481104@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
||
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410222306560.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org> <19117.1098481104@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
||
Comments: In-reply-to Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
||
message dated "Fri, 22 Oct 2004 17:38:24 -0400"
|
||
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 17:48:48 -0400
|
||
Message-ID: <19191.1098481728@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
||
From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
||
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Status: OR
|
||
|
||
>> That is needed no matter what change you do if you want old programs that
|
||
>> use the current timestamp with time zone to work. Today you don't get back
|
||
>> the same time zone as you insert, programs might depend on that.
|
||
|
||
> [ shrug... ] We've made much larger changes than that in the name of
|
||
> standards compliance.
|
||
|
||
BTW, even if you do want output like that, that doesn't make two
|
||
datatypes a good idea. It'd be better to add a couple of DateStyle-like
|
||
formatting options:
|
||
* rotate all timestamps into current TimeZone for display, or not;
|
||
* display the timezone numerically, or as originally given.
|
||
|
||
A DateStyle kind of GUC variable is a lot less dangerous than what you
|
||
were proposing, because getting it wrong doesn't mean you have the wrong
|
||
data stored in the database ...
|
||
|
||
regards, tom lane
|
||
|
||
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
||
TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
|
||
|
||
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60274=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Sat Oct 23 02:11:58 2004
|
||
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M60274=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org>
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||
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||
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 08:09:05 +0200 (CEST)
|
||
From: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
|
||
To: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
||
cc: Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>,
|
||
<pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
||
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
|
||
In-Reply-To: <18876.1098478892@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
||
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410230802200.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
|
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||
Status: OR
|
||
|
||
On Fri, 22 Oct 2004, Tom Lane wrote:
|
||
|
||
> behavior. The spec says you can put a numeric-GMT-offset zone in and
|
||
> get a numeric-GMT-offset zone out. We can do that and also support
|
||
> named, possibly DST-aware zones.
|
||
|
||
So if I understand you correctly you are planning to extend the current
|
||
timestamp type to work with both named time zones and HH:MM ones? I didn't
|
||
think you wanted the last one since your plan was to store a UTC+OID where
|
||
the OID pointed to a named time zone. And I guess that you don't plan to
|
||
add 00:00, 00:01, 00:02, ... as named zones with an OID.
|
||
|
||
--
|
||
/Dennis Bj<42>rklund
|
||
|
||
|
||
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
||
TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your
|
||
joining column's datatypes do not match
|
||
|
||
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60329=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Mon Oct 25 12:45:39 2004
|
||
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M60329=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org>
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|
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From: Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>
|
||
Organization: Aglio Database Solutions
|
||
To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
|
||
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
|
||
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 09:42:38 -0700
|
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|
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version=2.61
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Status: OR
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||
Tom,
|
||
|
||
> As far as I can tell, Dennis is planning slavish adherence to the spec,
|
||
> which will mean that the datatype is unable to cope effectively with
|
||
> daylight-savings issues. So I'm unconvinced that it will be very
|
||
> helpful to you for remembering local time in addition to true
|
||
> (universal) time.
|
||
|
||
As somebody who codes calendar apps, I have to say that I have yet to see an
|
||
implementation of time zones which is at all useful for this purpose,
|
||
including the current implementation. My calendar apps on PostgreSQL 7.4
|
||
use "timestamp without time zone" and keep the time zone in a seperate field.
|
||
|
||
The reason is simple: our current implementation, which does include DST,
|
||
does not include any provision for the exceptions to DST -- such as Arizona
|
||
-- or for the difference between "1 day" and "24 hours". (Try adding "30
|
||
days" to "2004-10-05 10:00 PDT", you'll see what I mean). Nor do I see a
|
||
way out of this without raising the complexity, and configurability, level of
|
||
timezones significantly.
|
||
|
||
So if we're going to be broken (at least from the perspective of calendar
|
||
applications) we might as well be broken in a spec-compliant way.
|
||
|
||
--
|
||
Josh Berkus
|
||
Aglio Database Solutions
|
||
San Francisco
|
||
|
||
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
||
TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives?
|
||
|
||
http://archives.postgresql.org
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|
||
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60334=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Mon Oct 25 13:56:27 2004
|
||
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M60334=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org>
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Mon, 25 Oct 2004 13:54:53 -0400 (EDT)
|
||
To: Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>
|
||
cc: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
|
||
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
|
||
In-Reply-To: <200410250942.38212.josh@agliodbs.com>
|
||
References: <20041022184636.62D39EAEE02@svr1.postgresql.org> <200410250942.38212.josh@agliodbs.com>
|
||
Comments: In-reply-to Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>
|
||
message dated "Mon, 25 Oct 2004 09:42:38 -0700"
|
||
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 13:54:53 -0400
|
||
Message-ID: <21834.1098726893@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
||
From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
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Status: OR
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|
||
Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> writes:
|
||
> The reason is simple: our current implementation, which does include DST,
|
||
> does not include any provision for the exceptions to DST -- such as Arizona
|
||
|
||
Say what?
|
||
|
||
regression=# set timezone to 'MST7MDT';
|
||
SET
|
||
regression=# select now();
|
||
now
|
||
-------------------------------
|
||
2004-10-25 11:52:47.093538-06
|
||
(1 row)
|
||
|
||
regression=# set timezone to 'US/Arizona';
|
||
SET
|
||
regression=# select now();
|
||
now
|
||
-------------------------------
|
||
2004-10-25 10:52:49.441559-07
|
||
(1 row)
|
||
|
||
> -- or for the difference between "1 day" and "24 hours". (Try adding "30
|
||
> days" to "2004-10-05 10:00 PDT", you'll see what I mean).
|
||
|
||
This is the point about how interval needs to treat "day" as different
|
||
from "24 hours". I agree with that; the fact that it's not done already
|
||
is just a reflection of limited supply of round tuits. I think it's
|
||
orthogonal to the question of how flexible timestamp with time zone
|
||
needs to be, though.
|
||
|
||
> Nor do I see a way out of this without raising the complexity, and
|
||
> configurability, level of timezones significantly.
|
||
|
||
This does not seem to me to be an argument why timestamp with time zone
|
||
ought to be incapable of dealing with DST-aware time zones. That simply
|
||
guarantees that calendar apps won't be able to use the datatype. If
|
||
they still can't use it when it can do that, then we can look at the
|
||
next blocking factor.
|
||
|
||
> So if we're going to be broken (at least from the perspective of calendar
|
||
> applications) we might as well be broken in a spec-compliant way.
|
||
|
||
I have not said that we can't comply with the spec. I have said that
|
||
our ambitions need to be higher than merely complying with the spec.
|
||
|
||
regards, tom lane
|
||
|
||
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60335=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Mon Oct 25 14:08:52 2004
|
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Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M60335=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org>
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|
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Reply-To: josh@agliodbs.com
|
||
Organization: Aglio Database Solutions
|
||
To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
|
||
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
|
||
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 11:08:52 -0700
|
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User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2
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cc: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
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References: <20041022184636.62D39EAEE02@svr1.postgresql.org> <200410250942.38212.josh@agliodbs.com> <21834.1098726893@sss.pgh.pa.us>
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Status: OR
|
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|
||
Tom,
|
||
|
||
> regression=# set timezone to 'US/Arizona';
|
||
> SET
|
||
> regression=# select now();
|
||
> now
|
||
> -------------------------------
|
||
> 2004-10-25 10:52:49.441559-07
|
||
|
||
Wow! When did that get fixed? How do I keep track of this stuff if you
|
||
guys keep fixing it? ;-)
|
||
|
||
Of course, it would be very helpful if the result above could display
|
||
"Arizona" instead of the non-specific "-07", but I'm pretty sure that's
|
||
already a TODO.
|
||
|
||
> This is the point about how interval needs to treat "day" as different
|
||
> from "24 hours". I agree with that; the fact that it's not done already
|
||
> is just a reflection of limited supply of round tuits.
|
||
|
||
Well, when I first brought up the issue (2001) I was shot down on the basis of
|
||
spec-compliance, since SQL92 recognizes only Year/Month and
|
||
Day/Hour/Minute/etc. partitions. Glad it's up for consideration again.
|
||
|
||
Come to think of it, it was Thomas Lockhart who shot down the idea of fixing
|
||
Interval, and he's retired now ...
|
||
|
||
> This does not seem to me to be an argument why timestamp with time zone
|
||
> ought to be incapable of dealing with DST-aware time zones. That simply
|
||
> guarantees that calendar apps won't be able to use the datatype. If
|
||
> they still can't use it when it can do that, then we can look at the
|
||
> next blocking factor.
|
||
|
||
That's definitely a progressive attitude .... pardon me for being pessimistic.
|
||
|
||
> I have not said that we can't comply with the spec. I have said that
|
||
> our ambitions need to be higher than merely complying with the spec.
|
||
|
||
Hmmm ... well, does the spec specifically prohibit DST, or just leave it out?
|
||
|
||
--
|
||
--Josh
|
||
|
||
Josh Berkus
|
||
Aglio Database Solutions
|
||
San Francisco
|
||
|
||
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
||
TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
|
||
|
||
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60336=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Mon Oct 25 14:21:12 2004
|
||
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M60336=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org>
|
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|
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To: josh@agliodbs.com
|
||
cc: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
|
||
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
|
||
In-Reply-To: <200410251108.52164.josh@agliodbs.com>
|
||
References: <20041022184636.62D39EAEE02@svr1.postgresql.org> <200410250942.38212.josh@agliodbs.com> <21834.1098726893@sss.pgh.pa.us> <200410251108.52164.josh@agliodbs.com>
|
||
Comments: In-reply-to Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>
|
||
message dated "Mon, 25 Oct 2004 11:08:52 -0700"
|
||
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 14:19:40 -0400
|
||
Message-ID: <22093.1098728380@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
||
From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
||
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at hub.org
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|
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|
||
Status: OR
|
||
|
||
Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> writes:
|
||
>> regression=# set timezone to 'US/Arizona';
|
||
>> SET
|
||
>> regression=# select now();
|
||
>> now
|
||
>> -------------------------------
|
||
>> 2004-10-25 10:52:49.441559-07
|
||
|
||
> Wow! When did that get fixed? How do I keep track of this stuff if you
|
||
> guys keep fixing it? ;-)
|
||
|
||
> Of course, it would be very helpful if the result above could display
|
||
> "Arizona" instead of the non-specific "-07", but I'm pretty sure that's
|
||
> already a TODO.
|
||
|
||
Well, that is *exactly what I'm talking about*. I want timestamp with
|
||
time zone to carry "US/Arizona" not just "-07". Obviously there needs
|
||
to be some option to get the latter displayed when that's all you want,
|
||
but internally a value of the datatype needs to be able to carry full
|
||
knowledge of which timezone it's supposed to be in. Dumbing that down
|
||
to a simple numeric GMT offset isn't good enough.
|
||
|
||
>> I have not said that we can't comply with the spec. I have said that
|
||
>> our ambitions need to be higher than merely complying with the spec.
|
||
|
||
> Hmmm ... well, does the spec specifically prohibit DST, or just leave it out?
|
||
|
||
It just doesn't talk about it AFAICS.
|
||
|
||
To comply with the spec we definitely need to be *able* to support
|
||
timezone values that are simple numeric GMT offsets. But I think we
|
||
ought also to be able to store values that are references to any of
|
||
the zic database entries. This looks to me like a straightforward
|
||
extension of the spec.
|
||
|
||
We went to all the trouble of importing src/timezone in order that we
|
||
could make a significant upgrade in our timezone capability, and now
|
||
it's time to take the steps that that enables. Before we were limited
|
||
to the lowest-common-denominator of the libc timezone routines on all
|
||
our different platforms, but now we are not...
|
||
|
||
regards, tom lane
|
||
|
||
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
||
TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives?
|
||
|
||
http://archives.postgresql.org
|
||
|
||
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60337=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Mon Oct 25 14:28:59 2004
|
||
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M60337=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org>
|
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 20:26:59 +0200 (CEST)
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From: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
|
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To: Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>
|
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cc: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org, Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
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Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
|
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In-Reply-To: <200410251108.52164.josh@agliodbs.com>
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|
||
On Mon, 25 Oct 2004, Josh Berkus wrote:
|
||
|
||
> Hmmm ... well, does the spec specifically prohibit DST, or just leave it
|
||
> out?
|
||
|
||
It doesn't discuss it. According to the spec a timestamp with time zone is
|
||
a UTC value + a HH:MM offset from GMT. And intervals in the spec is either
|
||
a year-month value or a day-time value. One can only compare year-month
|
||
values with each other and day-time values with each other. So they avoid
|
||
the problem of the how many days is a month by not allowing it.
|
||
|
||
The spec is not a full solution, it's also not a useless solution. I'm
|
||
happy as long as the spec is a subset of what pg implements. If not then I
|
||
would like to be able to have both but with different names or something
|
||
similar (but I think that should not be needed).
|
||
|
||
--
|
||
/Dennis Bj<42>rklund
|
||
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From: Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>
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Reply-To: josh@agliodbs.com
|
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Organization: Aglio Database Solutions
|
||
To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
|
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Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
|
||
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 11:54:33 -0700
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User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2
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cc: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>, Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
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References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410252019320.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
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Dennis,
|
||
|
||
> It doesn't discuss it. According to the spec a timestamp with time zone is
|
||
> a UTC value + a HH:MM offset from GMT. And intervals in the spec is either
|
||
> a year-month value or a day-time value. One can only compare year-month
|
||
> values with each other and day-time values with each other. So they avoid
|
||
> the problem of the how many days is a month by not allowing it.
|
||
|
||
That's not what Tom and I were talking about. The issue is that the spec
|
||
defines Days/Weeks as being an agglomeration of hours and not an atomic
|
||
entity like Months/Years are. This leads to some wierd and
|
||
calendar-breaking behavior when combined with DST, for example:
|
||
|
||
template1=> select '2004-10-09 10:00 PDT'::TIMESTAMPTZ + '45 days'::INTERVAL
|
||
template1-> ;
|
||
?column?
|
||
------------------------
|
||
2004-11-23 09:00:00-08
|
||
(1 row)
|
||
|
||
Because of the DST shift, you get an hour shift which is most decidely not
|
||
anything real human beings would expect from a calendar. The answer is to
|
||
try-partition INTERVAL values, as:
|
||
|
||
Hour/Minute/Second/ms
|
||
Day/Week
|
||
Month/Year
|
||
|
||
However, this could be considered to break the spec; certainly Thomas thought
|
||
it did. My defense is that the SQL committee made some mistakes, and
|
||
interval is a big one.
|
||
|
||
--
|
||
--Josh
|
||
|
||
Josh Berkus
|
||
Aglio Database Solutions
|
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San Francisco
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60339=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Mon Oct 25 15:07:28 2004
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To: josh@agliodbs.com
|
||
cc: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org, Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
|
||
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
|
||
In-Reply-To: <200410251154.33532.josh@agliodbs.com>
|
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References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410252019320.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org> <200410251154.33532.josh@agliodbs.com>
|
||
Comments: In-reply-to Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>
|
||
message dated "Mon, 25 Oct 2004 11:54:33 -0700"
|
||
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 15:04:16 -0400
|
||
Message-ID: <22502.1098731056@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
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From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
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Status: OR
|
||
|
||
Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> writes:
|
||
>> It doesn't discuss it. According to the spec a timestamp with time zone is
|
||
>> a UTC value + a HH:MM offset from GMT. And intervals in the spec is either
|
||
>> a year-month value or a day-time value. One can only compare year-month
|
||
>> values with each other and day-time values with each other. So they avoid
|
||
>> the problem of the how many days is a month by not allowing it.
|
||
|
||
> That's not what Tom and I were talking about. The issue is that the spec
|
||
> defines Days/Weeks as being an agglomeration of hours and not an atomic
|
||
> entity like Months/Years are.
|
||
|
||
I think though that these points are closely related. The reason the
|
||
spec does that is exactly that they are ignoring DST and so they can
|
||
assume that 1 day == 24 hours == 86400 seconds. In a DST-aware world
|
||
you have to make a separation between days and the smaller units, just
|
||
as months are separated from smaller units because there's not a fixed
|
||
conversion factor.
|
||
|
||
To some extent the interval and timestamptz issues are orthogonal, but
|
||
I think it would be good to fix them in the same release if possible.
|
||
There will undoubtedly be some backwards-compatibility problems, and
|
||
I suppose that users would prefer to take them all at once than via
|
||
the chinese water torture method ...
|
||
|
||
> However, this could be considered to break the spec; certainly Thomas
|
||
> thought it did. My defense is that the SQL committee made some
|
||
> mistakes, and interval is a big one.
|
||
|
||
I'm not clear to what extent we have to actually break the spec, as
|
||
opposed to extend it, in order to do this to the "interval" type. To do
|
||
everything the spec says we need to do, we'll have to be able to make
|
||
some comparisons that aren't strictly valid (which amounts to assuming
|
||
that 1 day == 24 hours for some limited purposes) but we already do much
|
||
the same things with respect to months. (See other thread about whether
|
||
1 year == 360 days...)
|
||
|
||
regards, tom lane
|
||
|
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60340=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Mon Oct 25 15:12:25 2004
|
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 21:11:04 +0200 (CEST)
|
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From: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
|
||
To: Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>
|
||
cc: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org, Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
||
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
|
||
In-Reply-To: <200410251154.33532.josh@agliodbs.com>
|
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Status: OR
|
||
|
||
On Mon, 25 Oct 2004, Josh Berkus wrote:
|
||
|
||
> Dennis,
|
||
>
|
||
> > It doesn't discuss it. According to the spec a timestamp with time zone is
|
||
> > a UTC value + a HH:MM offset from GMT. And intervals in the spec is either
|
||
> > a year-month value or a day-time value. One can only compare year-month
|
||
> > values with each other and day-time values with each other. So they avoid
|
||
> > the problem of the how many days is a month by not allowing it.
|
||
>
|
||
> That's not what Tom and I were talking about.
|
||
|
||
You wanted to know what the standard said, and I told what I knew.
|
||
|
||
> The issue is that the spec defines Days/Weeks as being an agglomeration
|
||
> of hours and not an atomic entity like Months/Years are.
|
||
|
||
I don't know what you mean with this. The standard does treat them as
|
||
|
||
year
|
||
month
|
||
day
|
||
hour
|
||
minute
|
||
second (with fractions)
|
||
|
||
There is no weeks there, if that is what you mean.
|
||
|
||
> This leads to some wierd and calendar-breaking behavior when combined
|
||
> with DST, for example:
|
||
>
|
||
> template1=> select '2004-10-09 10:00 PDT'::TIMESTAMPTZ + '45 days'::INTERVAL
|
||
> template1-> ;
|
||
> ?column?
|
||
> ------------------------
|
||
> 2004-11-23 09:00:00-08
|
||
> (1 row)
|
||
>
|
||
> Because of the DST shift, you get an hour shift which is most decidely not
|
||
> anything real human beings would expect from a calendar.
|
||
|
||
I don't see how the above can be caused by the representation of an
|
||
interval. The above timestamp is
|
||
|
||
2004-10-09 10:00 PDT
|
||
|
||
which in the standard would be
|
||
|
||
2004-10-09 10:00 -07
|
||
|
||
and after the additon would be
|
||
|
||
2004-11-23 10:00:00-07
|
||
|
||
Here the time zone is wrong since the standard does not know about named
|
||
zones and dst.
|
||
|
||
An implementation like the one Tom (and I) want would start with
|
||
|
||
2004-10-09 10:00 PDT
|
||
|
||
and then after the addition one would get
|
||
|
||
2004-11-23 10:00:00 PST
|
||
|
||
At least that's my understanding of what we want and what we can get (plus
|
||
that we also need to support HH:MM tz values since those also exist in the
|
||
world, check this emails header for example).
|
||
|
||
It's possible that you discuss something else, but that has been lost on
|
||
me so far.
|
||
|
||
--
|
||
/Dennis Bj<42>rklund
|
||
|
||
|
||
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60341=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Mon Oct 25 15:15:18 2004
|
||
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 21:12:59 +0200 (CEST)
|
||
From: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
|
||
To: Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>
|
||
cc: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org, Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
||
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
|
||
In-Reply-To: <200410251154.33532.josh@agliodbs.com>
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Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410252112090.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
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|
||
On Mon, 25 Oct 2004, Josh Berkus wrote:
|
||
|
||
> Hour/Minute/Second/ms
|
||
> Day/Week
|
||
> Month/Year
|
||
|
||
And just when I pressed "send" on the previous mail I got the problem
|
||
:-)
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|
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--
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/Dennis Bj<42>rklund
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60342=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Mon Oct 25 15:20:32 2004
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 21:18:52 +0200 (CEST)
|
||
From: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
|
||
To: Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>
|
||
cc: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org, Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
||
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
|
||
In-Reply-To: <200410251154.33532.josh@agliodbs.com>
|
||
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410252114250.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
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|
||
On Mon, 25 Oct 2004, Josh Berkus wrote:
|
||
|
||
> Hour/Minute/Second/ms
|
||
> Day/Week
|
||
> Month/Year
|
||
|
||
This is embarrasing. I'm still a bit confused :-)
|
||
|
||
The standard treat days as a separate entry, it does not assume that a day
|
||
is 24 hours. It restricts the hour field to the interval 0-23 so one can
|
||
never have something like 25 hours. So it does not need to worry about how
|
||
many days that translate to.
|
||
|
||
And why do we need weeks also?
|
||
|
||
Well, this is the last mail I send before I've been thinking about this
|
||
for a while more :-)
|
||
|
||
--
|
||
/Dennis Bj<42>rklund
|
||
|
||
|
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---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives?
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http://archives.postgresql.org
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60344=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Mon Oct 25 15:36:30 2004
|
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Mon, 25 Oct 2004 15:35:04 -0400 (EDT)
|
||
To: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
|
||
cc: Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
|
||
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
|
||
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410252114250.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
|
||
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410252114250.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
|
||
Comments: In-reply-to Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
|
||
message dated "Mon, 25 Oct 2004 21:18:52 +0200"
|
||
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 15:35:04 -0400
|
||
Message-ID: <22816.1098732904@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
||
From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
||
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Status: OR
|
||
|
||
Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org> writes:
|
||
> The standard treat days as a separate entry, it does not assume that a day
|
||
> is 24 hours.
|
||
|
||
SQL92 says
|
||
|
||
4.5.2 Intervals
|
||
|
||
There are two classes of intervals. One class, called year-month
|
||
intervals, has an express or implied datetime precision that in-
|
||
cludes no fields other than YEAR and MONTH, though not both are
|
||
required. The other class, called day-time intervals, has an ex-
|
||
press or implied interval precision that can include any fields
|
||
other than YEAR or MONTH.
|
||
|
||
AFAICS the reason for this rule is that they expect all Y/M intervals to
|
||
be comparable (which they are) and they also expect all D/H/M/S intervals
|
||
to be comparable, which you can only do by assuming that 1 D == 24 H.
|
||
|
||
It seems to me though that we can store days separately and do interval
|
||
comparisons with the assumption 1 D == 24 H, and be perfectly
|
||
SQL-compatible as far as that goes, and still make good use of the
|
||
separate day info when adding to a timestamptz that has a DST-aware
|
||
timezone. In a non-DST-aware timezone the addition will act the same as
|
||
if we weren't distinguishing days from h/m/s. Therefore, an application
|
||
using only the spec-defined features (ie, only fixed-numeric-offset
|
||
timezones) will see no deviation from the spec behavior.
|
||
|
||
regards, tom lane
|
||
|
||
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
||
TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
|
||
|
||
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60343=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Mon Oct 25 15:31:38 2004
|
||
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 14:40:57 -0500
|
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From: Bruno Wolff III <bruno@wolff.to>
|
||
To: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
|
||
cc: Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org,
|
||
Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
||
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
|
||
Message-ID: <20041025194057.GA26356@wolff.to>
|
||
Mail-Followup-To: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>,
|
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Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org,
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Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
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References: <200410251154.33532.josh@agliodbs.com> <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410252114250.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
|
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|
||
Status: OR
|
||
|
||
On Mon, Oct 25, 2004 at 21:18:52 +0200,
|
||
Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org> wrote:
|
||
> On Mon, 25 Oct 2004, Josh Berkus wrote:
|
||
>
|
||
> > Hour/Minute/Second/ms
|
||
> > Day/Week
|
||
> > Month/Year
|
||
>
|
||
> This is embarrasing. I'm still a bit confused :-)
|
||
>
|
||
> The standard treat days as a separate entry, it does not assume that a day
|
||
> is 24 hours. It restricts the hour field to the interval 0-23 so one can
|
||
> never have something like 25 hours. So it does not need to worry about how
|
||
> many days that translate to.
|
||
>
|
||
> And why do we need weeks also?
|
||
|
||
For convenience. Just like years are a group of months, weeks are a group
|
||
of days.
|
||
|
||
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
||
TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
|
||
|
||
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60346=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Mon Oct 25 16:10:09 2004
|
||
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M60346=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org>
|
||
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|
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 22:08:14 +0200 (CEST)
|
||
From: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
|
||
To: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
||
cc: Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>, <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
||
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
|
||
In-Reply-To: <22816.1098732904@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
||
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410252204070.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
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Status: OR
|
||
|
||
On Mon, 25 Oct 2004, Tom Lane wrote:
|
||
|
||
> There are two classes of intervals. One class, called year-month
|
||
> intervals, has an express or implied datetime precision that in-
|
||
> cludes no fields other than YEAR and MONTH, though not both are
|
||
> required. The other class, called day-time intervals, has an ex-
|
||
> press or implied interval precision that can include any fields
|
||
> other than YEAR or MONTH.
|
||
>
|
||
> AFAICS the reason for this rule is that they expect all Y/M intervals to
|
||
> be comparable (which they are) and they also expect all D/H/M/S intervals
|
||
> to be comparable, which you can only do by assuming that 1 D == 24 H.
|
||
|
||
I said I was not going to send any more mails, but here we go again :-)
|
||
|
||
The standard restrict the hour field to the interval 0-23, so there can
|
||
never be any compare between for example '1 day 1 hour' and '25 hours'.
|
||
This means that one can not add two intervals together to get a bigger
|
||
one but that it would still work to do timestamp+interval+interval.
|
||
|
||
> It seems to me though that we can store days separately and do interval
|
||
> comparisons with the assumption 1 D == 24 H, and be perfectly
|
||
> SQL-compatible as far as that goes, and still make good use of the
|
||
> separate day info when adding to a timestamptz that has a DST-aware
|
||
> timezone. In a non-DST-aware timezone the addition will act the same as
|
||
> if we weren't distinguishing days from h/m/s. Therefore, an application
|
||
> using only the spec-defined features (ie, only fixed-numeric-offset
|
||
> timezones) will see no deviation from the spec behavior.
|
||
|
||
I agree with this.
|
||
|
||
--
|
||
/Dennis Bj<42>rklund
|
||
|
||
|
||
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
||
TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
|
||
|
||
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60347=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Mon Oct 25 16:20:45 2004
|
||
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M60347=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org>
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||
Received: from [64.81.245.111] (account josh@agliodbs.com HELO temoku.sf.agliodbs.com)
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|
||
with ESMTP id 6554308; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 13:19:17 -0700
|
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From: Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>
|
||
Reply-To: josh@agliodbs.com
|
||
Organization: Aglio Database Solutions
|
||
To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
|
||
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
|
||
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 13:20:01 -0700
|
||
User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2
|
||
cc: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>, Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
||
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410252103340.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
|
||
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410252103340.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
|
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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|
||
Status: OR
|
||
|
||
Dennis,
|
||
|
||
> An implementation like the one Tom (and I) want would start with
|
||
>
|
||
> 2004-10-09 10:00 PDT
|
||
>
|
||
> and then after the addition one would get
|
||
>
|
||
> 2004-11-23 10:00:00 PST
|
||
|
||
Sounds like we're on the same page then.
|
||
|
||
> The standard restrict the hour field to the interval 0-23, so there can
|
||
> never be any compare between for example '1 day 1 hour' and '25 hours'.
|
||
> This means that one can not add two intervals together to get a bigger
|
||
> one but that it would still work to do timestamp+interval+interval.
|
||
|
||
Hour field of the timestamp, or hour field of interval? There a world of
|
||
difference.
|
||
|
||
As long as we're willing to live with the understanding that +1day 1 hour may
|
||
produce a slightly different result than + 25 hours, I don't see the problem.
|
||
Currently I can add +900 hours if I like, postgreSQL will support it.
|
||
|
||
--
|
||
--Josh
|
||
|
||
Josh Berkus
|
||
Aglio Database Solutions
|
||
San Francisco
|
||
|
||
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
||
TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate
|
||
subscribe-nomail command to majordomo@postgresql.org so that your
|
||
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|
||
|
||
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60348=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Mon Oct 25 16:24:27 2004
|
||
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M60348=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org>
|
||
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|
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|
||
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 22:22:29 +0200 (CEST)
|
||
From: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
|
||
To: Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>
|
||
cc: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org, Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
||
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
|
||
In-Reply-To: <200410251320.01311.josh@agliodbs.com>
|
||
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410252221150.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
|
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|
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|
||
Status: OR
|
||
|
||
On Mon, 25 Oct 2004, Josh Berkus wrote:
|
||
|
||
> > The standard restrict the hour field to the interval 0-23, so there can
|
||
> > never be any compare between for example '1 day 1 hour' and '25 hours'.
|
||
> > This means that one can not add two intervals together to get a bigger
|
||
> > one but that it would still work to do timestamp+interval+interval.
|
||
>
|
||
> Hour field of the timestamp, or hour field of interval? There a world of
|
||
> difference.
|
||
|
||
Hour field of an interval can be 0-23 according to the spec (doesn't say
|
||
that we need that restriction, but we do need to understand what the spec
|
||
say).
|
||
|
||
--
|
||
/Dennis Bj<42>rklund
|
||
|
||
|
||
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
||
TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate
|
||
subscribe-nomail command to majordomo@postgresql.org so that your
|
||
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|
||
|
||
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60349=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Mon Oct 25 16:34:48 2004
|
||
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M60349=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org>
|
||
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|
||
To: josh@agliodbs.com
|
||
cc: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org, Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
|
||
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
|
||
In-Reply-To: <200410251320.01311.josh@agliodbs.com>
|
||
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410252103340.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org> <200410251320.01311.josh@agliodbs.com>
|
||
Comments: In-reply-to Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>
|
||
message dated "Mon, 25 Oct 2004 13:20:01 -0700"
|
||
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 16:32:37 -0400
|
||
Message-ID: <23329.1098736357@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
||
From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
||
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|
||
Status: OR
|
||
|
||
Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> writes:
|
||
> As long as we're willing to live with the understanding that +1day 1 hour may
|
||
> produce a slightly different result than + 25 hours, I don't see the problem.
|
||
|
||
Right, which is exactly why we can't accept the spec's restriction that
|
||
the hour field be limited to 0-23. People may legitimately want to add
|
||
48 hours to a timestamp, and *not* have that mean the same as adding
|
||
"2 days". Besides, we would have a backwards-compatibility problem if
|
||
we tried to forbid it, since as you note we've always accepted such input.
|
||
|
||
regards, tom lane
|
||
|
||
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
||
TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
|
||
|
||
http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faqs/FAQ.html
|
||
|
||
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60371=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Mon Oct 25 21:26:49 2004
|
||
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M60371=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org>
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To: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
||
cc: josh@agliodbs.com, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
|
||
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
|
||
References: <20041022184636.62D39EAEE02@svr1.postgresql.org> <200410250942.38212.josh@agliodbs.com> <21834.1098726893@sss.pgh.pa.us> <200410251108.52164.josh@agliodbs.com> <22093.1098728380@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
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Status: OR
|
||
|
||
>>>regression=# set timezone to 'US/Arizona';
|
||
>>>SET
|
||
>>>regression=# select now();
|
||
>>>now
|
||
>>>-------------------------------
|
||
>>>2004-10-25 10:52:49.441559-07
|
||
>
|
||
>
|
||
>>Wow! When did that get fixed? How do I keep track of this stuff if you
|
||
>>guys keep fixing it? ;-)
|
||
|
||
That's worked for ages. What doesn't work is this:
|
||
|
||
usatest=# select current_timestamp at time zone 'US/Arizona';
|
||
ERROR: time zone "us/arizona" not recognized
|
||
|
||
Chris
|
||
|
||
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
||
TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
|
||
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60372=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Mon Oct 25 21:41:27 2004
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Mon, 25 Oct 2004 21:39:46 -0400 (EDT)
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To: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
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cc: Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
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Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
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In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410230802200.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
|
||
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410230802200.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
|
||
Comments: In-reply-to Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
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message dated "Sat, 23 Oct 2004 08:09:05 +0200"
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 21:39:43 -0400
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Message-ID: <3222.1098754783@sss.pgh.pa.us>
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From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
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Status: OR
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Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org> writes:
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> So if I understand you correctly you are planning to extend the current
|
||
> timestamp type to work with both named time zones and HH:MM ones? I didn't
|
||
> think you wanted the last one since your plan was to store a UTC+OID where
|
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> the OID pointed to a named time zone. And I guess that you don't plan to
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> add 00:00, 00:01, 00:02, ... as named zones with an OID.
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I missed getting back to you on this, but I think we can do both. Some
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||
random points:
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|
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* Once we expand timestamptz to bigger than 8 bytes, there's essentially
|
||
zero cost to making it 12 bytes, and for that matter we could go to 16
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without much penalty, because of alignment considerations. So there's
|
||
plenty of space.
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||
|
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* What we need is to be able to represent either a fixed offset from UTC
|
||
or a reference of some kind to a zic database entry. The most
|
||
bit-splurging way of doing the former is a signed offset in seconds from
|
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Greenwich, which would take 17 bits. It'd be good enough to represent
|
||
the offset in minutes, which needs only 11 bits.
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||
|
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* I suggested OIDs for referencing zic entries, but we don't have to do
|
||
that; any old mapping table will do. 16 bits would surely be plenty to
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||
assign a unique label to every present and future zic entry.
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||
|
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* My inclination therefore is to extend timestamptz with two 16-bit
|
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fields, one being the offset from UTC (in minutes) and one being the
|
||
zic identifier. If the identifier is zero then it's a straight numeric
|
||
offset from UTC and the offset field is all you need (this is the SQL
|
||
spec compatible case). If the identifier is not zero then it gives you
|
||
an index to look up the timezone rules. However, there is no need for
|
||
the offset field to go to waste; we should store the offset anyway,
|
||
since that might save a trip to the zic database in some cases.
|
||
|
||
* It's not clear to me yet whether the stored offset in the second case
|
||
should be the zone's standard UTC offset (thus always the same for a
|
||
given zone ID) or the current-time offset for the timestamp (thus
|
||
different if the timestamp is in daylight-savings or standard time).
|
||
|
||
* If we store the current-time offset then it almost doesn't matter
|
||
whether the timestamp itself is stored as a UTC or local time value;
|
||
you can trivially translate either to the other by adding or subtracting
|
||
the offset (*60). But I'm inclined to store UTC for consistency with
|
||
past practice, and because it will make comparisons a bit faster: you
|
||
can compare the timestamps without adjusting first. Generally I think
|
||
comparisons ought to be the best-optimized operations in a Postgres
|
||
datatype, because index operations will do a ton of 'em. (We definitely
|
||
do NOT want to have to visit the zic database in order to compare two
|
||
timestamptz values.)
|
||
|
||
regards, tom lane
|
||
|
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---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60373=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Mon Oct 25 21:53:52 2004
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Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M60373=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org>
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Mon, 25 Oct 2004 21:52:00 -0400 (EDT)
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||
To: Christopher Kings-Lynne <chriskl@familyhealth.com.au>
|
||
cc: josh@agliodbs.com, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
|
||
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
|
||
In-Reply-To: <417DA785.7010208@familyhealth.com.au>
|
||
References: <20041022184636.62D39EAEE02@svr1.postgresql.org> <200410250942.38212.josh@agliodbs.com> <21834.1098726893@sss.pgh.pa.us> <200410251108.52164.josh@agliodbs.com> <22093.1098728380@sss.pgh.pa.us> <417DA785.7010208@familyhealth.com.au>
|
||
Comments: In-reply-to Christopher Kings-Lynne <chriskl@familyhealth.com.au>
|
||
message dated "Tue, 26 Oct 2004 09:25:25 +0800"
|
||
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 21:52:00 -0400
|
||
Message-ID: <3306.1098755520@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
||
From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
||
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at hub.org
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Status: OR
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||
Christopher Kings-Lynne <chriskl@familyhealth.com.au> writes:
|
||
> That's worked for ages. What doesn't work is this:
|
||
|
||
> usatest=# select current_timestamp at time zone 'US/Arizona';
|
||
> ERROR: time zone "us/arizona" not recognized
|
||
|
||
Right, and similarly you can do
|
||
|
||
regression=# select '2004-10-25 21:32:33.430222 MST'::timestamptz;
|
||
timestamptz
|
||
-------------------------------
|
||
2004-10-26 00:32:33.430222-04
|
||
(1 row)
|
||
|
||
but not
|
||
|
||
regression=# select '2004-10-25 21:32:33.430222 US/Arizona'::timestamptz;
|
||
ERROR: invalid input syntax for type timestamp with time zone: "2004-10-25 21:32:33.430222 US/Arizona"
|
||
|
||
I would like to see both of these cases working in 8.1; and furthermore
|
||
I'd like to see the timezone specs coming back as entered, not as bare
|
||
numeric offsets. (This will need to be adjustable via a DateStyle
|
||
option, of course, but I want the information to be in there whether it
|
||
is displayed or not.)
|
||
|
||
regards, tom lane
|
||
|
||
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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||
TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
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